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Posted by onyx 
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May 24, 2011 09:02PM
My darling and I have been discussing the issue of VISION lately. So we are focusing on the vision of our marriage, and family. But this also brings up the question of our own individual spiritual vision...


Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained,
But happy is he who keeps the law.

So...keeping the LAW, huh? well ok...
And what of the individual vision; do we need to have a vision for our own spiritual growth, all planned out and structured? What of those of us who prefer to live as free spirits?

So do YOU have a VISION? If so, does it help?

Every day people are straying away from the church and going back to God.
- Lenny Bruce
Re: Vision
May 25, 2011 12:45AM
Arrhhhg! - Gasp

IMHO - this has been one of the most used and thrown around scripts in the IC that has made a dreadful mess out of those whose lives are still really not sure about what the Father wants for them and of them! Shameful to admit we have no vision without a Pastor. "We" were told, preached to and lectured about the 'ones' who had no vision and lived 'unrestrained lives' that now I'm trying to think - what really is a "unrestrained life"?
Are they like, wild and uncontrolled individuals that go where they please, believe what that want and... listen to rock music!?

Noooo - everyone knowns that the people must be controlled and sure on their direction for life and purposefully onto the "plan" the the bible sets out for everyone after all thats what 'churchianity' is all about? We must tell them and btw - the end of days is May 21st 2011 7.00pm right after the News, all christians should know that! ...."Pooof"

"Oh how loverly are the feet of him that brings good news"

A somewhat differant 'vision' now!
Re: Vision
May 25, 2011 10:02AM
Well, just thinking out loud here...if the purpose of a vision / mission statement is to keep bringing your focus back to the essentials of what you believe in order to move you forward,

THEN, is the above scripture perhaps saying that in the context of the old testament (and the old law) that abiding by the 10 commandments is the backbone of a personal vision? After all weren't the 10 commandments a summation of how many hundreds of other laws they had?!

ALTHOUGH, it has been suggested that this verse is mis-translated and the part which says "Where there is no vision" may actually mean "Where there has been no revelation" or "Where there is no divine guidance".

SO, this could mean "Where God has not revealed Himself, people go their own way, but when He does and people listen to what He is telling them, they are content" Almost as if the first part of the verse compliments and mirrors the last. It all depends on the original translation.

ALTERNATIVELY under the new 'law' where you've instead got "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and soul and mind and strength; and love your neighbour as yourself", then isn't that your personal vision?

AND if that is your personal vision then I can see why you get the likes of "finding your spiritual gifts" workshops and "40 days of purpose" course, programmes for outreach etc; because people are trying to apply the 'doing' to the human 'being'

BUT, isn't that then bringing Old Testament mentality to New Testament living?

I am tending to believe that visions/mission statements are great for organisations and really useful for families & marriages - all organisms where there are more than one person involved and the individuals could benefit from clear boundaries/understanding within which they have freedom to be themselves; but perhaps vision applies differently to an individual?

How are we to know our potential? Does Papa actually want us to 'do' anything? Is 'the prize' that we are 'running the race' for instead simply relationship with Him? Is the verse "Love the Lord your God...." then not our 'goal'?

IF we are content in our relationship with Papa, and we heed what He has to say, putting Him first; then aren't we in the best place to align ourselves with how He sees us, and therefore to accept ourselves and what He says about us? Out of that relationship are we not empowered to be our best in our marriage, in our family, in the organisations we are involved in?

/thinking out loud/
Re: Vision
May 25, 2011 10:20AM
I have no ambitions and no goals. I only ever had one goal: to be married. The rest has been survival.

Granted, I suppose I should never truly admit this when asked in a job interview, "What are your goals...?"
Re: Vision
May 25, 2011 01:33PM
For me, and I hope this is not just good intentions my vision has been honed to seek first the kingdom of god. Easier said than done as my own agenda gets in the way. I have been set a task by Shelley to listen to the Cronicles of narnia and various books have spoken to me: in the silver chair the children have a goal but get side tracked with the lure of soft beds and warm food only to find those offering such temptations are giants with humans on the menu, then in a horse and his boy the boy talks of situations where their journeys were changed or hastened by lions in their midst, aslan later tells the boy that there was but one lion aslan guiding him even though at the time he did not know it.

Yes I would like a companion to walk by my side that is not my goal or vision but a hope that dad guides me in the path of this person and keeps me from going off the track in pursuit of soft beds.

The hardship is dealing with the stale bread, cold lonely and wet places to sleep in the mean time.
Re: Vision
May 25, 2011 05:07PM
Really like what Wifey said about visions & mission statements being for two-or-more people joined in a venture, rather than for individuals. LH said it well when he described how the organizational church tries to control individuals with mandates to be "purpose driven" and the like.

As individuals, I think it's much better to be "love inspired" than "purpose driven". And I've struggled with this, because maybe it's old tapes in my head saying I need a purpose, a goal to live for, so I've felt unsettled and kind of lost. But Papa has been changing my heart about that, teaching me contentment in each day with him, doing the next right thing and taking the adventure he brings to me.

I cringed when J said I "set him a task"....I didn't! I just encouraged him to try the books! Lest you think I'm telling people what to do. That's for the mentalfundagelicostals, isn't that what you call them, Onyx?
Re: Vision
May 25, 2011 08:29PM
The hardship is dealing with the stale bread, cold lonely and wet places to sleep in the mean time.

That's the rub...thinking more about it overnight...what IF we don't feel that we are close to Papa or hearing from Him? Do we just sit back, kick off our heels and do nothing? Do we wallow in self pity? Do we have to accept our lot? Or is there a way we can 'rest' and be content?

OR do we instead keep 'doing' something, knowing it will be woven into the rich fabric of our lives somehow. Are we charged with pursuing the desires of our hearts? Aren't they there for a reason?

WHAT if the desire is there, but the opportunity is not? What do we do with that willingness that so bottles up inside of us that it taunts us with it's forcefulness?
Re: Vision
May 25, 2011 11:03PM
firstly shelley should know i very rarely do what i'm told, but if it sits better, i was encouraged in love something she does expertly.

Just thoughts but for me im looking at the phrase SEEK first the kingdom of god, not recieve, what about seeing first the kingdom of god in all things, in the stale bread and in the feast, in the hard floor and in the comfy bed, in the lonelyness as well as the delights of company, seeing gods will and putting gods will in the point of central focus.

What if times of drought when we cant hear gods word, he is saying remember and trust what you have been told.

I dont know.
Re: Vision
May 26, 2011 12:11AM
(((Juk))) - winking smiley - (((Shelley ))) it's Imrightyourwrongmanagerialpentachrist's you might be thinking of? Get it right Shell!!

(((Wifey))) So "The purpose driven life" didnt resonate for you or Onyx? what about "The 7 habits of the Highly Effective Christian revised version III"

Hmm then whats missing in this question, Faith? Trust? Am i just blindly following something that I cant see, cant always hear and my insides tell me its right or wrong sometimes? Did the IC always try to tell me which way it is supposed to be and I just didnt get it, or couldnt make it work? I must of got a broken one?

An old song comes to mid here (we will stand up now and sing it 4 times through winking smiley )
"Thy word is a light to my feet and a lamp to my path"
Psa 119-105
Actually the Psalm has much to say on 'direction' and 'association' - one could almost use the term 'relationship' here and there? Maybe he was onto something that was 'lost in translation or filtration'?

Re: Vision
May 26, 2011 12:41AM
Great questions, Wifey.

IMO, what we do when we don't feel we're close to Papa or hearing from him? Wait a while, keep your eyes and ears wide open, keep doing the next right thing and most of all, keep being loved and loving. That may not be everyone's way, but it works for me.

I can't remember ever hearing or reading that we are charged with pursuing the desires of our hearts. We're charged with pursuing the kingdom of God, and righteousness, and love, and pursuing peace with all men as far as it depends on us....and a bunch of other things....but I don't think we're told to pursue the desires of our hearts. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with pursuing those desires, but....they're not the main thing, y'know?

I'm open to seeing it another way! this is just my opinion.
Re: Vision
May 26, 2011 09:50PM
I hear you C Shell. Perhaps that's some of the warped IC teaching still coming through about pursuing the desires of our hearts!

When I was looking up Psalm 37 online I came upon these two very different articles.

One, a picture that paints a thousand words: [picturinggod.ignatianspirituality.com]

The other - a thousand words! [www.crosswalk.com]
Re: Vision
May 27, 2011 01:25PM
I only put stock in the OT as it pertains to a new covenant. Everything has been redeemed through that paradigm. With that being said..stream of consciousness begins…….NOW

A vision to me would be like a knowledge or standard that we know of how things " ought " to be..or "God Desired" that was the way the law was to me.

But the new wine was much more..and far more gracious. It was more about identity.I like what Shelly said about pursuing the desires of the heart. Because it speaks to me about something very important in regards to identity.I have these dreams and goals and standards etc.. on my heart..they are strong and attached to various emotional responses and stirring of the soul deep down applications.Which make them feel very much part of my actual individual. And they are to a degree.More like expressions or better yet refelctions.

Which sometimes get mistaken for a need to identify with them rather then knowing they are expressions of my created being through him. As unique as it may be for each one of us....I want to identify with them for a variety of reasons. But what I think Jesus is doing now is...trying to get me to see that these things are fulfilled in the very nature of himself and that these things can be expressed now though his spirit....and very much are..and with you guys and gals as well..I can see it..always have.

in other words..they are naturally surfacing to be produced though him..you already possess these expressions and character in HIM...your not striving to become them although at times it feels like it....in those times when the need or evidence doesn't match those visions happens I need to remember that THIS is the need for grace in my life..not some textual mandate of trying harder in my own power..

God is always speaking around me..movies, nature, songs..others..even in the smile of my daughters. What we seem to lack nowadays is encouragement. I could bore you with that observation if you like.. :-)
Re: Vision
June 01, 2011 11:48AM
Here's my vision statement:

Papa, glorify your name in my life. (period)
Johns Gospel

Nicked this from Wayne Jacobsens book "He Loves Me"

Thats it...... I wrote it on my wrist and on the screen on my Treo. Why? Cause I'm wont to forget it and sometimes I get scared and run and hide, but, He keeps wooing me back.

Just made sense to me and I like things simple. Amen
Re: Vision
June 01, 2011 03:13PM
I seem to like things complicated and deep. Why?? Don't know really..maybe because I spent so much time trying to simplify the paradigm that I finally realized that Love is complicated..not in theory of course but in experience..

well maybe I don't like it complicated..I still pound my fist on the table at the frustration and confusion of this life..cuss and swear at it's relentless inconvenience..But I'm constantly being reminded

There has been no arrivals for me on any subject it's related to..and it's uncertainty keeps the vision moving. I find no rest in this world no matter how hard I try..even with God and faith..today's manna will go bad and tomorrow's revelation no matter how many high fives I get will at some point keep taking on water..

It's not a popular vision..But the only consistent simple thing I got going for me now is that I will keep moving..even kicking and screaming when necessary..

the mystery of it is complicated to my mortal mind..but He still let's me play...even the black sheep need to graze and roam.

this REALLY is a journey..as simple as that sounds.The road is full of times of doubt, frustration..and confusion..along with the great times of joy and fellowship. For me anyway there are no arrivals.Life is messy..

lately it's been hard to find those of like mind...every forum I've been apart of has shut down, figured it out..and arrived ???..I feel kind of alone anymore.."the discussion" is in a severe drought..guess it's time to blog....or take karate lessons..or maybe start a band..I don't know..It seems like a few years ago..you couldn't get people to stop yammering on about the mystery of God..and their own journeys....Eh? I probably missed the train..or the memo..

Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 03:56PM by radio roswell.
Re: Vision
June 01, 2011 05:11PM
Jeff, I love you. I wish I could understand your words better, but I do get your heart, which is expansive and restless, passionate and truth seeking...and much much more. I also wish I could give you the stimulating conversational run for your money that you're seeking...especially since it seems you're not finding much of that elsewhere. I know how lonely it can be when you feel like everybody else is listening to a different radio station, and you either can't get it on your transistor, or you hate that kind of music.

One difference I think between us is that I'm always trying to simplify things, and it seems like the simpler it gets, the more suspicious you get that it's really the truth, or that we're settling for Esau's stew when we should be holding out for the birthright? Yes? No?

You say uncertainty keeps the vision moving. I would say "mystery" rather than uncertainty. I am certain of God and of love and I think you are too. He is wild, untamed, unpredictable, mysterious and I'm good with that. The simplifying part to me is just letting that be, enjoying it. Looking for new mysteries and talking about them for awhile. You say that God is always speaking around you, YES! I get that too. And then you say we lack encouragement. You mean you personally? or all of us? If you need some, I have lots I could give you cool smiley
Re: Vision
June 01, 2011 05:22PM
C Shell
One difference I think between us is that I'm always trying to simplify things, and it seems like the simpler it gets, the more suspicious you get that it's really the truth, or that we're settling for Esau's stew when we should be holding out for the birthright? Yes? No?

LOL..Now that's "Jeff like"..see....you just did it..that was a run for the money..

i didn't mean to make a fuss..and thanks...(((((((((((Shelly)))))))))) I was just venting..I suspect something..

even Jacob wrestled..literally..LOL David vented..brutally honest..

It seems..and I could be very very wrong..that were trying to oversimplify the experience so that it's more convenient...BUT..does it relate to the world around us?? are we creating another box?? another arrival that doesn't relate to those hurting and who doubt.....who are really trying to keep heads above water.. are we trying to look even more "together"..?

i don't know..the thought is not together yet...it's lurking and stewing around..this is another part of this journey that irks me...the denial of fear of getting it wrong..so unnatural to me....so NOT me...

Carry on..I'm good..just being loose with the keyboard and thoughts..like a message in a bottle..jsut seeing if anyone else is on this particular island..

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 05:29PM by radio roswell.
Re: Vision
June 01, 2011 05:42PM
Just wondering if the conversation you are looking for, is going on all around you but old ways of talking has put blinkers on your ears if that is possible.

Some christian friends of mine who are struggling with the concept of church get together every monday to as they call it have a wrestling session, for some reason i have never been invited and for a while i felt disappointed or envious that i was missing out on a conversation about things i was wrestling with too. However i now question how they will come to any new answer if they are only wrestling with like minded people (apart from divine encounter) even if they they have slightly differing perspectives. The conversation is completly different when those you talk with those who have totally different ideas and views, not with a mind to change convert or win over but to listen and learn, to doubt your own starting point.

When you talk with people who speak your language you can say things almost in code or shorthand without sometimes really knowing what you mean but when you speak with someone who has never believed you have to think about what you are saying how you explain things.

I have had some amazing conversations with people who dont believe, hate religion, about love, the end of the world, creation, not in the old sense, where a christian annouces triumphantly that they have had a conversation with a work mate about god, as if this is the first stage to winning them over, but in the sense that things we have both shared has challenged us both.

This is just my observation but i beleive that god is involved in the conversation, and that conversation is with all of creation, when one section stops talking listen to the rest
Re: Vision
June 01, 2011 10:15PM
It's cool J...I understand..

you all have a good thing here..I'm just trying to figure out something...it's my own path..the last few years really did a number on me..left me feeling more vulnerable than ever..and less confident..

I'm just feeling a bit out of place and lost right now.I need to work my outlets...get somewhat on track again..

I was just trying to get some conversation going..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 10:19PM by radio roswell.
Re: Vision
June 01, 2011 10:27PM
It's not easy when you have all your life been told that all giants and ogres are evil and will corrupt you, then to find that they are equally loved and that dad is involved equally in their lives even if they don't know it.

It messes with your mind but it expands the box you try and put god in.
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